The Next Web

What is keeping women out of tech? Do you really want to know?

Duel between the sexes?Yesterday, Boris threw down the gauntlet and asked why so few women are applying their smarts in the tech industry. Why aren’t we rising to the top as web entrepreneurs, leaders and speakers? Is it true that “most women never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity?”

So, in the interests of getting all of us – men and women – thinking about why women are often less represented in the tech field, I’m taking Boris up on his offer of a right of reply, via guest post here at The Next Web.

As a longtime tech journalist and editor turned web publishing teacher and communications consultant, I’ve spent the last decade working in Australia’s male dominated tech industry. So I have experienced my share of frustration at the fact that the gender balance is so poor. In the open source tech community in Australia, women make up just 7 % of participants.  I hate the fact that so many Australian girls drop out of maths and sciences at high school, that their enrolments in tech related courses at uni are so low, and that girls are often absent from tech events for students.

I teach web publishing, and I’ve tried hard to instill a ’startup’ culture in my students. It is an uphill battle – university courses are geared towards getting students to complete coursework, not incubating startups. But I’ve tried, nonetheless. Last semester, I invited Australian web entrepreneurs Duncan Rileyand Stephen Mayne to a one night ’startup camp’ in which students had to pitch their website prototype as though they were pitching to a VC. (No, I couldn’t find a female web entrepreneur in Melbourne to join the panel. That sucked too.)

I’m disappointed that despite so many of my promising students developing awesome web prototypes, so far they don’t seem inclined to take the next step into launching them as commercial ventures. I feel this is a touchy thing to say where my female students will read it, but to be honest,  I’ve come to expect that my best female students, who are often the driving creative forces behind the web projects build in my class, are even less likely than their male counterparts, to take the leap into startup land. But I’m going to keep trying, because that’s why I do what I do. I want to help young people make awesome stuff on the web.

In short, I’m not unaware that there is a gender imbalance in tech, and I’ve put in a fair amount of time to organising events aimed at helping even up the gender balance. I have walked the talk.

So I feel qualified to point out two reasons why Boris’ article asking “What is keeping women out of tech” is just, well, unhelpful. It annoys me that so often discussion of the low representation of women in tech is blamed on women. It kind of makes me think of a guy with terrible body odour and bad breath sitting at a party, wondering why people are avoiding him, and then saying they must all be terrible snobs, it couldn’t be HIS fault. My other pet peeve is when people make huge generalisations about ALL WOMEN:

Don’t get me wrong. I love women and think they are smarter, faster and more organized than men. Unfortunately I don’t see too many women taking advantage of their skills and the opportunities presented to them.

Which might also be written as “Some of my best friends are women, but my goodness you’re all lazy good for nothings aren’t you?” Thanks for making my amazing, accomplished female friends in tech INVISIBLE.

Boris also seems to agree with the comedian he quotes who told a bunch of women at a networking event that since they hadn’t brought business cards: “I guess you all thought that if you show your breasts he will remember you.” How is this appropriate language for a business event? The gender of the speaker is irrelevant. I wouldn’t go to a business event and make a joke to a guy about if he wants me to remember him he should take out his penis. It beggars belief that I should even have to explain this.

It is perhaps this last point which is hard to convince people like Boris to understand. It’s partly because so many sexist behaviours happen again and again and again that women sometimes lose patience with demanding better behaviour. it sometimes feels you’d have more success trying to herd a colony of cats than change the elements within any given male dominated tech business or community to bring in more female talent. So, some smart women decide, as Boris suggests, to put their time elsewhere. Either by working outside of tech, or by declining to enter the same tired blogging debate in women in tech. Fran Molloy, a commenter on my blog, put it quite nicely:

No women in tech? Witness the rise and rise of ‘mumpreneurs’ who don’t have formal qualifications, don’t go to industry conferences, don’t self-promote “Look at me, i’m in TECH and I’m a chick, wow!!” but learn on the job, get the work done and get on with their lives.

My problem with Boris’ take on the situation is that he criticises women for never DOING anything, except showing up to complain about “getting sexualized in a business context.” But his argument basically boils down to complaining that no women come to The Next Web conference, without exploring why that might be, and how TNW might change things to get more women involved. It must be OUR FAULT.

If the purpose of Boris’ post was really to try to talk to women about their under representation, and maybe to encourage more women to attend The Next Web, I have to say it’s made me feel discouraged, rather than encouraged.

But the fact is, if we really want to change the under representation of women in tech, and make sure we attract the finest minds we can, someone needs to budge and admit ‘we need to change things around’. Pointing fingers at each other while saying “I don’t need to do anything differently” is going to achieve exactly zip.

So, I’m here to point out how we might tweak our conversation in order to move forward.

One great place to start is the Geek Feminism blog, which is full of tech women (many of whom are successful geek women and entrepreneurs) who take time out of their work and personal lives to try to encourage other women to succeed in tech. That approach is what impresses me, more than hollow complaints.

If you’re actually interested in making your software better by having a more diverse range of people working on it, or making the Web better by ensuring that we attract as many creative, entrepreneurial women to Web startups as we can, then ask some of the successful tech women around who’ve come up with ways to do that, within their own companies and communities .

I look forward to seeing the Web our daughters build. I’m helping teach them how to build it. What are you doing?

Sarah Stokely (About)

@stokely

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  • So... you've admitted yourself that many of your students are just not interested of making their prototypes into products. You've complained about sexism, but is this really what is keeping women out of tech? Don't get me wrong, I'm not for people demeaning others because of their gender, but it seems like so much more than just off-putting by sexism.
  • Hi Jeremy,
    Well, my students are interested enough in the web to enrol in my (elective) digital subjects!
    I guess there are two issues at play here - one is the fact that a lot of girls 'switch off' maths and sciences at high school or even younger - the other is that universities aren't doing a great job of encouraging entrepreneurship.
    So I agree, there are factors affecting female participation even before girls make it into the tech workforce.
  • Sexism is keeping women out of a lot of things, tech included.

    It's quite pervasive, and it's not entirely up to women to fix it. It's up to men in tech to learn about the problem and make sure you're at minimum not getting in the way, and preferably actually helping fix it.

    Apart from the geekfeminism.org blog, which is awesome, here is a more general article:

    The Do's and Don'ts of Being a Good Ally - http://karnythia.livejournal.com/1387435.html
  • Martha Mihaly
    Nice post, frames the problem, but there is yet to be a comprehensive explanation for the lack of general interest, nor an action plan for moving forward.
    As a mumtrepreneur myself I agree we are out there, not self promoting, but rather getting the job done. It's a job, not a passion.
    Without passion there can be no true innovation.
  • Hi Martha,
    Thanks. I agree that actions speak louder than words. Here's a link to a lovely post offering up one thing that a geek professional can do to encourage female innovation at a young age. I loveit for its simplicity and the fact that you don't need to wait for a government to implement it: sponsor a small award for girls who innovate.
    http://geekfeminism.org/2009/09/23/howto-create...

    Cheers!
    Sarah
  • Sheryl Breuker
    Great reply to Boris' post, Sarah.

    I probably can't make a better argument than you can, but I would like to add a couple of observations.

    I have no idea how old you are, Sarah. I'm a middle aged woman, not a mommy blogger, not a real tech geek, and yet I do adore technology and all that goes with it. I also have attended conferences in VoIP and communications, been to dinners with the major dynamo's in that industry, and am wowed in many ways by the real geekiness of it.

    Having said that, I have made the observation myself that in that particular arena, if you attend a conference one of the first things you're greeted with, after picking up your badges and signing in, BOOTH BABES! This does little to offer assurance in an industry we have been told is no longer part of the good old boys club. *cough*cough

    Aside from that, there is a definite counter culture that exists and only allows for men to take meetings with each other. Many a deal is done at a breakfast table in a hotel, women on the edge, and it's a rare woman getting tagged to go along unless she is accompanying one of the more visible males.

    Another aspect to this experience, and I can only speak for myself, not the many women who are doing something and making inroads for themselves in this amazing industry, is that for me...I simply don't feel qualified. I am neither a mommy blogger, nor have I aspired to be one, and have no academic background in this industry. My knowledge, such as it is, is completely self-taught, so it feels a bit presumptuous of me to have expectations of being included when I bring no background seen to have value.

    So putting all of that aside I will share something I have noticed. In this industry, like many others, one of the constant messages surrounding women is this very subject. What do I mean? It's obvious women haven't the history, certainly not the diversity and longevity most of the men have. How many industries can you think of where the same is true in the reverse? There are very few. The 2 major differences are, 1. Men don't draw attention to it when they aren't taken seriously in a woman's world and 2. If there is in an industry that is very specific to women, it's a rare man who even aspires to it.

    There are extenuating circumstances to the above 2 scenarios, and one is, of course that if it's a woman's world it's viewed as less desirable. On the flip side of that is that women really do want to be involved in the man's world. So they point at it and relate that to everyone around them the way they always have. Women and men handle business and personal relationships very differently. Based on recent studies, women appear to be more vocal than men. They're also moving away from the old fashioned term the 'weaker sex'. They balk at it and rise against it. It's a truly vicious cycle.

    Just as women who are mothers have to relinquish their old ideas that only they can parent properly, men are going to have to accept that women can be as capable as they in their business world. And maybe in the meantime we need to be a little less worried about whether we are making inroads and let it unfold. It will because women are capable and intelligent. Women will become great technology leaders in increasing numbers. It won't happen over night. You can't open the door and expect a flood of women to step through it. It is a process and we are starting to move through it now.

    Thanks again Sarah for a thoughtful reply to Boris.
  • Hi Sheryl,
    Thanks for your reply.
    Can you believe that the booth babe phenomenon still goes on?!
    Feeling underqualified is an understandable feeling in tech, where often people are self taught. I feel it keenly myself as unlike many of my friends and peers, I'm not a software developer, "just" a content creator/editor person.
    Unfortunately I suspect self taught guys are more likely to feel qualified than their equally skilled female counterparts. This is sometimes cited as the reason for the salary/earnings gap between men and women!
    Check out Valerie Aurora tutorial on negotiating salary, if you're interested. I think it gives some good insights into the role confidence in your qualifications has on the way you do business negotations.
    http://valerieaurora.org/howto_salary/

    Cheers!
    Sarah
  • Anonymous
    Sexism is such a huge issue in technology. Thanks for your article.
  • Seeing similar discussions happen backwards in field like health care (my mother works in the field), I can't help but think that we've outgrown the whole discussion of gender in careers. As always the truth lies somewhere in the middle: both men and woman need to participate into creating a balanced atmosphere. But the discussion is just so incredibly personal that it's hard to go beyond a few personal quotes and blips.

    However, I do want to respond to one point in your article. I think Boris was very actively trying to trigger discussion and help move things forward. In any case: he got a response from you, and I should think you would see this as something positive. Accusing him of the opposite halts this effort, and makes me think this whole article is a step back.
  • Hi Robert,
    Both Boris and myself were trying to move things along. I think the fact that he responded to my initial comment by inviting me to write a rebuttal shows that.
    I pointed out the bits of Boris' article that I disagreed with because I think they undermine what he was trying to achieve - constructive dialogue and change. So I don't see that as a step back, especially if it gets people to think about how we can do things differently to achieve a different result.

    Cheers,
    Sarah
  • Nate Cochrane
    Looks to me be less an issue with maths and science and more to do with lack of confidence and business acumen. Perhaps they should spend more time doing MBAs and public speaking than developing web prototypes that will never be put into production?
    It takes a very special person to be an entrepreneur and having technical skills is insufficient. There are plenty of outstanding male technicians and mathematicians who would be poor entrepreneurs.
    I think you summed up the problem when you said your female students didn't want to pitch.
    "My best female students ... are even less likely than their male counterparts to take the leap into startup land."
    And I guess its pointless showing how the likes of Lord Byron's daughter, Ada Lovelace (first programmer), Laure Albin-Guillot (developed the modern notion of artistic photography in today's terms a multimedia or new-media pioneer), Grace Murray Hopper(conceived of the "bug"), Pem Gardner (developed TV with her husband, Philo Farnsworth), Marie Curie or any other female technologist has advanced the state of the art down through the ages?
  • As both an entrepreneur and a student (in entrepreneurship at RMIT) I think the problem you're facing with your students is unrelated to any gender divide.

    Starting a business, becoming an entrepreneur is rarely seen as a valid career choice for anyone regardless of their gender. Even within my entrepreneurship course less than 30% of graduates will start their own business in the first 5 years with the remainder seeking corporate positions in innovation.

    Are you trying to get more people to pursue entreprenuership (whether tech related or otherwise) or are you trying to get more women to pursue technology-related careers?

    There are of examples of great female entrepreneurs working in tech-related fields in Melbourne. For instance iPhone app and web publishing guru Michelle Mathews with her Deck of Secrets. Outside of tech there is Monique Conheady of Flexicar, Maureen Wheeler of Lonely Planet, Carmen of Carmen's Muesli, Kristinna Karlsson of Kikki K.... just to name a few.

    There is also a regular meetup for female entrepreneurs in Melbourne (though everyone is more than welcome at the Hive ;) which is organised by Melbourne University student and tech entrepreneur Marita Cheng: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=291347840296

    Ned
    @nedwin
  • Rufita
    Like any other male dominated field (e.g., construction, sports), when first starting out, you have to be a brave and tenacious woman to get past the initial shock of a room full of smelly men.

    In Tech, the sheer shock to the senses in a non-stop 72-hour development push is probably enough to turn most woman away. This was near torture for me in my early career, but I got through it.
  • i just think these articles are so disappointing.

    there are TONS of women in tech. The problem is not even the women in tech will acknowledge it.

    Guess I must not be female or in tech.
  • I'm a mature-aged IT student in Sydney, Mum, ex-lawyer. My observations:

    -I'm old enough to remember only boys were praised for cleverness (particularly at Maths) in primary school. The equally clever girls were shunned, by teachers and students alike. Both boys and girls were praised for looks.

    -Everytime I make a mistake on a computer, in programming or installing or whatever, I remember all the times I've been yelled at for touching a piece of technology. Boys can "tinker""experiment""learn by mistakes". Girls just f* up. Sure, I can get past that. I used to teach video editing. My IT grades are very good. But the effort of getting past that ... it's tiring.

    -I hate admitting I don't understand an IT issue or asking a question in class: who wants to be "that dumb girl" "that dumb woman"? The stereotypes are much less cruel for men in IT.

    -I have interests other than IT - mainly fashion, craft, art & parenting. Feminine interests, so a strong disqualification from claiming to be a geek or nerd. I have some social skills, too. And I'm not really into science fiction. So I almost never describe myself as a geek, and thus am excluded from some technical discussions.

    -I'm often the only female in my class, or the only Caucasian female (the 2-3 others are Asian / Indian Sub-continent). Every student has their crisis of confidence, but for female students, it's really, really clear they don't belong. It's not fun belonging to the minority 10-15%.

    -Lecturers still say: "In that case, you should refer it to the Test Manager and he..." I do call them out on the sexist implications of their terminology, but it's tiring.

    -When I look at the industry, do I want to join it? My head is still sore from bashing it against the brick walls in law, another still male dominated industry (although for the last 10 years, over 60% of students are female).

    -And to be an entrepreneur, in a startup? Yes, I've done the 80 weeks, pre-kids. I know eg. Chris Brogan is committed to his family (nothing against him, just an example I know) but how many mothers of young children could/would work that late (after their late night childcare work), fly that much, be away that frequently ... by choice?

    Basically, the cultural messages, expectations, negative stereotypes built up throughout women's lives are reinforced when they enter IT. Sure women can overcome that ... but it's tiring, an extra burden. I guess like me they question: "Is it worth it? Do I really want that?"
  • Great editorial!
  • Danja
    As a woman working in technology for over 13 years, I was really eager to read your article, only to find out you don't even try to answer the question. But I have thought about the same question a lot, and I still am not sure what the answer is. That there is sexism in the tech field, of course there is, but sexism is present in many fields. I think in a way, we hold ourselves back, because we tend to promise only what we can deliver. A man will bullshit his way into any topic, and I think it is just something that comes more natural to men. Women tend to be more cautious by nature. Just look at the Wall Street fiasco, women were not running those high powered looting banks. The other issue I see as an obstruction to women advancing in tech field is just the nature of the job. Technology is a jelous mistress, it requires not only time spent on the job, but also dedication in the off hours. Now if you add to that equation parenthood, those off hours when you can devote yourself to building yourself up as an expert are replaced by taking care of your family. If you are a single mom, things are even harder. If you don't believe me, then read up a profile in American Vogue on Marissa Meyer from Google. She is one of the top people in the company. When she speaks, men listen. She also happens to live and breath Google. Are you willing to do that because that is what it takes?
  • Bram
    Why wouldn't you be willing to get the best out of yourself i order to reach the top? A sporter has to do it and so do people who aspire to rech the top in whatever field. The people who become the industry leaders or the political leaders spend many, many more than 40 hours a week on their job. If you don't want to sacrifice your time and effort, you don't belong there.

    I'm Dutch and here in the Netherlands there's a discussion going on whether we should set up a quotum for a minimal percentage of women in the top of large companies. I think this is a wrong measure because we should want the best candidate as our leaders, not a person who is chosen for their gender (or say, color of skin).

    So, as a man, I'm calling on all you girls and women: Get out into the arena and get out the best of your self. And don't hide behind parenting, divide that task equally with your partner.
  • Heath
    So both parents are 'giving 110%' in their jobs. What happens to the kids? What happens to the house? Your dare is immature, selfish and short-sighted. It's not other people's responsibility to make your job of being a decent and inclusive person easier.

    If men would divide housework and childcare equally with women, I think you would see a lot more women focusing on their jobs simply because they would be able. Think about your own situation. When was the last time you cleaned your house? The last time you deliberated over your social schedule to make sure that you weren't offending people? The last time you had to come home from work to take care of sick kids while your spouse stayed at her job? The last time you had to interview housekeepers, childcare workers? When was the last time you had to fire the people you interviewed and selected for incomptetence, stealing, abusing your house or your children? These are all areas that most men expect women to take care of, and they are shocked to realize that having a wife who works just as many hours as they do mean that they need to make some sacrifices to take care of their home and family because women are fed up with making huge sacrifices just to get the food cooked and on the table.
  • Good reply Sarah - I have worked in the tech industry for over 20 years - somewhere during the late 80s and early 90s dotcom space the gender balance improved...or it certainly felt that way. However over the past 5 years or so it just seems to be a whole lot harder and I have seen more and more women leave the industry and less of them being appointed to senior roles etc.

    I dont think it only applies to technology - check out corporate Australia. "Australian women have one of the lowest labour market participation rates in the OECD...whilst Australia rates No. 1 in the gender index of women’s education it is only No. 41 in women’s workforce participation" - for more on this and to find out about the Fed Govt's current review of the Equal Opportunity for Women in Employment Agency (EOWA)and the legislation it administers, (EOWW) check out Anne Summers' Looking Glass blog.

    So you have raised a good point - and we do need to talk about, discuss, debate and do something - we (and I point the finger at women here) wont change anything if we dont speak up do things differently.

    On another note, if you are looking for women in the web space check out Leisl Capper CEO of MyCyberTwin - impressive lady who is making her mark and doing some really clever stuff.
  • Erin
    Sarah, it was fantastic to be able to read such a concise blog about this topic. I'm not particularly involved in the tech field; however, as a young woman working at a computer store, I've encountered more than my fair share of sexist comments and actions. Thank you.
  • Nick Sharratt
    I don't doubt sexism exists in tech as it unfortunately persists in society generally but I don't believe this alone, or even mostly, explains the dearth of females entering tech related careers.

    Sexism exists in medicine, but nursing is dominated by females. It exists in fashion, but doesn't seem to prevent girls aspiring to a career in that industry. In both of these however, girls can see role models they aspire to (even if those role models are exploited, less well paid, and less successful at the top levels than males). So what is the difference if it's not sexism?

    OK, there are certain gender roles which parents and society seem comfortable with young girls aspiring to - toys from an earliest age tend to betray this, and there was a facinating experiment where they dressed a baby as a boy or girl and left with an adult who didn't know the babys sex and a range of toys an the adult _insisted_ the child play with the gender stereotypical toys ; but there is also research that baby girls/boys make gender biaised choices themselves too.

    So, society treats girls and boys differently from the earliest age, and girls and boys appear to have gender biaised preferences too - so a certain degree of gender differentiation in certain fields if not surprising as a consequence (again, I'm not saying this is right/good, but it's much more deep rooted and complex than it would seem from the post)

    just a couple of specific points - booth babes, deplorable, but also unsurprising. Women are used to sell things in EVERY branch of society, een the female dominated industries use women to sell to other women. It's objectionable, and depressing, but it's also not a surprise to find that tech is no different to the rest of society. I don't believe this is a cause of the gender imbalance, although it can't help either.

    I also think the article might give more insight into the issue if writen by a range of women who aren't in tech. Why did they not see it as a career choice? I struggle to understand te issue as a male, but equally I think a female in tech is perhaps not ideally placed to understand why other women don't get drawn into the field.
  • Mara Smith
    I would like to see an article from the standpoint of women who chose not to go into tech after dipping their toes in, as well.

    However, I did find it interesting that you seemed to find no irony in saying, "this field is male dominated but ..."

    The roles you stated in those male dominated fields are the support roles. Nurses, Models, maybe a clothing designer. But the high paid, prestigious roles such as Doctor and Manager are still male dominated. I think it compares nicely to tech, and what the author said about finding women in higher ranking positions.

    I believe there are gender differences from birth; I also think our society does a horrible job of using those differences to our advantage eg. what a female could bring to a higher level tech position or a male bring to female dominated areas.
  • wendy
    well. that was... feminist.

    even though your article was very well written, and you made good points; the only thing that stuck with me was:

    boris bad.. male-dominated... sexist... generalization.. unhelpful... discourage women from tech... men smell bad and scare away women... males are to blame.. sexist...
  • Great post Rob. Fast Company covered this last year with a blog post and an entire feature package in its magazine, with extended blog posts from some of the women in tech on the Fast Company site. Here’s where you can find it: http://www.fastcompany.com/women-in-tech/2009 and here http://www.fastcompany.com/tag/women-tech


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • Twinkle Toes
    SUCCESS!

    You see, there are women reading tech blogs!
    They just comment on sexists stories. :D

    What sexist remarks must Boris make to get you to comment/participate more?

    @Bram, I am also Dutch. There is a discussion going on here in Holland to get a higher percentage of women in top level positions.

    Men always argue that the best/skilled person for the job should get the position. I disagree. And I will totally explain why :D

    When a man and woman have the same experience or skill level, it simply comes down to likability, social standing and tradition. In a male dominated profession, the women always strike out. They simply don't register on the old-boys-club-scale.

    Arguments like: You know Phil, you can depend on him. You play golf together, whereas Mary...well she goes home to her boyfriend and in 2 years she will want a baby. What do we know about her? She just does her job.
    Yes I am totally sharing inside secrets here. :D

    The Dutch government wants the next chief of police to be a woman. There are several women available for the job. They're all qualified and have years of experience under their belt. Shit! No pun intended (yes I am totally a sexist). And they can totally handle a big gun (last joke I promise) :D

    But the brass argues that there are men that could better fill that job position. Tricky, tricky dilemma.

    A lot of industries -hell most- are dominated by man. For a woman to make it to the top requires almost extraordinary talent.
    Man can get the same position by strategically using their social standing and contacts.

    By choosing the best female candidate for the job, we will create a role model for other women.
    The current brass has indicated that they like the female candidates. But they stubbornly cling to their preferred male candidate.

    We -the government- should break that chain and show that women can do the job. This will be an inspiration to other women.

    I also believe that this is a Western thing. Asian countries, -hell even Pakistan- vote on women for prominent political roles.

    We have yet to see a female PM in Holland.
    Hah, let's hope the next PM is female and black. We will be ahead of the curve.

    If a Muslim Nation like Pakistan has no problem with a female for PM or President, then why the fuck are we so stubborn to NOT choose a confident, ambitious and skilled woman as the next Chief of Police.

    http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
    Hah, Bhutto was even elected as PM twice!
    Shame on us!

    Peace out.
  • Bram
    @Twinkle, OK, so you're 100% convinced that there is a fenced Old Boys Network (there sure is, but it also restricts a lot of non-corps men(corps is the largest Dutch student society)).

    But you didn't answer the question why women are not equaly prominent in startups. Or is that just because "tech sucks, blegh"?
  • A couple off the top of my head that spring to mind:


    Caterina Fake – Co-founder of Flickr

    Sarah Lacy – Tech Journalist


    Here’s a great list by FastCompany:


    http://www.fastcompany.com/mag…..ology.html


    There have been some incredibly rich discussions on the topic at Hacker News:


    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=332819

    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=838136


    Some stereotypes and bias displayed in the discussions, but that’s actually useful to read if you want to understand both sides of the issue, because you get a clearer picture of people’s true feelings and motivations on the subject.


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • Twinkle Toes
    Oh yeah, I totally forgot to specify the answer to the initial question: Why aren't there any women in tech.

    Dude, tech sucks. Women know that. I would rather be in marketing than in tech. Blegh! Internet stuff is soooo 1995.

    Most women in tech, that I know, are in consulting, management, project planning and testing. They indeed see tech more as a job.
    There are very few hardcore women programmers.

    Only men go to conferences like The Next Web and talk about projects like shitter.com and crapbook.com and act like it actually matters.
    That's why Boris never sees any women at his events.

    Women look at Shitter.com and say: can I buy shoes there? No? Than what's the point?

    I think that women should go in portfolio management. Or better yet, Venture/Seed Capital management. Because a woman wouldn't invest a 100 million in a Series 'U' round of funding for shitter.com

    Hell, why am I even in tech?
    Web 2.0 is just the same old rehash of the crap of 1.0 with 'social' sprinkles. Blegh!

    Peace out.
  • > Web 2.0 is just the same old rehash of the crap of 1.0 with 'social' sprinkles. Blegh!

    Gold!! You're funny. And why do women go in to marketing after working in tech? Because they realise the quality of the content going up on the web is crap...and they want to fix it!
  • Rob Diana

    Lynne and Ryan


    I remember seeing the Fast Company article but that was definitely more of a “most influential” list. I was trying to focus more on women I would want my daughters to talk to and learn more from, maybe specific traits from each. It could be very closely related to the most influential list, but this is more of a personal list.


    Caterina Fake I do not know as much about though she is probably a good addition. I did not include Sarah Lacy because I already have Kara Swisher and they are very similar.


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • Rob


    I think that either Gina Trapani or Barb Dybward would fit the bill of what you’re talking about here. Also Rohit Bhargarva did this Women of Personality Project http://www.thepersonalityproject.com/wop2/ that although it’s not all tech women, there are quite a few in there.


    Also one of the links I posted from FC wasn’t just the magazine article but an archive of everything FC has done on Women In Tech (or at least most everything they’ve covered about Women In Tech all with lists that you might pull from).


    There’s also Women Who Tech http://www.womenwhotech.com/ and Women In Tech and Girls In Tech, where you might find some women you’d want to add to your list.


    You’ve just touched on one of the topics that I’m always talking about. People are always asking where are the women in tech, and they’re definitely out there.


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • Rob Diana

    Lynne


    I am not sure how I missed Gina Trapani, she should absolutely be on this list. I do not know Barb Dybward, but I will definitely look into her and the other links you provided.


    I agree that the “where are the women in tech” argument is fairly lame because people just don’t seem to look.


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • I was wondering the same thing about Gina Trapani. It is not often that there is a discussion about women in tech. This type of content needs to happen more often!


    KD Paine should also be on this list.


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • Ronjini
    I think part of the problem is that young women don't know what the possibilities are in tech for them. Not wanting to be branded a 'geek', women have a lot more pressure to keep up a 'feminine' persona; which doesn't really encapsulate technology. I myself, fell into tech by coincidence and not really by choice, but once you go tech, it's hard to go back :)!
  • Mara Smith
    Thank you for the reply to Boris.

    First, regarding Ronjini, you are spot on! I have been fascinated by the reaction of both men and women when they find out about either of my male dominated careers: QA and being a pilot. There is an instant "oh, you are just a tomboy" attitude from many that aims to make me feel less valuable. 'A beautiful woman doesn't NEED to use her brain', they seem to say (and one flat out did say).

    I have been dealing with a mountain of sexism at my current job. I was furloughed from the airline so I took a part time job on the line fueling and moving aircraft. My attempts to get back into QA have thus far been unsuccessful, and every startup I have interviewed at (and I am only going for startups) have been all male. One interviewer spent the better part of an hour trying different ways to find out if I had kids or planned to get pregnant. "We are very family oriented here, how do you feel about that?" "There is a ChuckECheese next door to take kids... you know, if you have any".. etc

    So, anyway, on the line I have met at least 5 people in charge of hiring that said they would never hire a woman pilot. To my face. With no shame or indication that it is wrong. THEN, after this happened, another colleague had the brass tacks to tell me women have it easier in aviation.

    To pretend that sexism no longer exists in either of these fields (or other male dominated fields) does a disservice to us all. I don't believe for a second there is less sexism in tech, the people involved are just classier in their methods of showing it. Is it the only thing holding us back? Of course not, but it sure isn't helping.
  • Rob,

    This type of information needs to reach non-tech women as well. We all serve as role models to each other and our respective children. Thanks for writing this.


    Susan


    This comment was originally posted on Regular Geek

  • Hi Svetlana,

    I've seen too many incidences of unprofessional behaviour by men in tech to agree with you that women are their own worst problem here. And I also think that a lot of times men or companies don't realise that they've got a project or company that can be an unwelcoming place for prospective contributors or employees who are female. (And I think that sometimes pointing this stuff out, and getting it changed, helps EVERYONE because often companies really want to find more smart employees, some of who'll be female).


    I certainly concede that professionals should be robust enough to be able to roll up and work whether they choose, without a special invitation. But at the same time I think that to a large extent, like attracts like, and culture and software doesn't thrive in that environment. I'm not a fan of monocultures. A lot of interesting work has been done to talk about why it's not good for software development, in particular.


    From observing several female developer-heavy software communities that have sprung up this year (Dreamwidth and OTW), I'm leaning towards the notion that a software project needs to start with a diverse base of contributors if diversity is a goal. It's harder to achieve that 'artificially' later on. So I'm interested to learn more about how software projects, communities or companies, can attract and retain the best, brightest and most diverse workforce from the start.


    Thanks for your post.


    Sarah


    This comment was originally posted on Profy.Com - Web 2.0 News & Commentary

  • Hi Svetlana,

    I’ve seen too many incidences of unprofessional behaviour by men in tech to agree with you that women are their own worst problem here. And I also think that a lot of times men or companies don’t realise that they’ve got a project or company that can be an unwelcoming place for prospective contributors or employees who are female. (And I think that sometimes pointing this stuff out, and getting it changed, helps EVERYONE because often companies really want to find more smart employees, some of who’ll be female).


    I certainly concede that professionals should be robust enough to be able to roll up and work whether they choose, without a special invitation. But at the same time I think that to a large extent, like attracts like, and culture and software doesn’t thrive in that environment. I’m not a fan of monocultures. A lot of interesting work has been done to talk about why it’s not good for software development, in particular.


    From observing several female developer-heavy software communities that have sprung up this year (Dreamwidth and OTW), I’m leaning towards the notion that a software project needs to start with a diverse base of contributors if diversity is a goal. It’s harder to achieve that ‘artificially’ later on. So I’m interested to learn more about how software projects, communities or companies, can attract and retain the best, brightest and most diverse workforce from the start.


    Thanks for your post. :)


    Sarah


    This comment was originally posted on Profy

  • Hi Sarah,


    Thanks a lot for your comment – I knew you would not agree here at all ;)


    I can agree that I am probably simply too young (I am not even in my 30s yet) and I have not worked in tech long enough to make my judgment but my opinion is based solely on my own experience – i.e. lack of negative experience. And I really do not mean to say that women are their worst problem, I actually think that every person is their own problem (no matter what gender is) anyway as it depends on everyone (our professionalism or lack of it mostly) if we achieve the goals or not.


    But I certainly agree with you 100% that everyone could benefit a lot from more women participating in every field because women have some qualities that men frequently lack and their presence in various projects (software-related or not) could improve such projects a lot so probably the environment should be more welcoming. But if a woman has a goal of working in some project, she will certainly achieve it if this is something she truly wants. But what I am trying to say that no environment will help if you yourself are not determined enough to achieve something – woman or man.


    Again, thanks for stopping by and for taking the time to share your thoughts once again in this comment.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy

  • Hi Sarah,


    Thanks a lot for your comment – I knew you would not agree here at all


    I can agree that I am probably simply too young (I am not even in my 30s yet) and I have not worked in tech long enough to make my judgment but my opinion is based solely on my own experience – i.e. lack of negative experience. And I really do not mean to say that women are their worst problem, I actually think that every person is their own problem (no matter what gender is) anyway as it depends on everyone (our professionalism or lack of it mostly) if we achieve the goals or not.


    But I certainly agree with you 100% that everyone could benefit a lot from more women participating in every field because women have some qualities that men frequently lack and their presence in various projects (software-related or not) could improve such projects a lot so probably the environment should be more welcoming. But if a woman has a goal of working in some project, she will certainly achieve it if this is something she truly wants. But what I am trying to say that no environment will help if you yourself are not determined enough to achieve something – woman or man.


    Again, thanks for stopping by and for taking the time to share your thoughts once again in this comment.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy.Com - Web 2.0 News & Commentary

  • These kind of issues have been raised many times but the distinctiveness of this issue is young women has winched it and publish it. One should have some guts to raise the matter which has been hyped intentionally. We should need to give men and women an equal opportunity and it should be our prime motto for our society. I believe that this “maxim” should be spread to our entire stratum such an eloquent way so that no one can be deprived at all.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy

  • These kind of issues have been raised many times but the distinctiveness of this issue is young women has winched it and publish it. One should have some guts to raise the matter which has been hyped intentionally. We should need to give men and women an equal opportunity and it should be our prime motto for our society. I believe that this “maxim” should be spread to our entire stratum such an eloquent way so that no one can be deprived at all.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy.Com - Web 2.0 News & Commentary

  • Jarod Clark

    Saying that I agree or disagree with your view on this would be pointless. What I do think is essential to highlight is that you along with most other people in the world continue to drive a stake between people. It matters not if you are a man or woman. It only matters what skills sets you bring to the table. The longer you focus on the differences, the longer you will dwindle in the past; living your life based on such archaic premises. Being unable to see the light; but what do I know.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy.Com - Web 2.0 News & Commentary

  • Jarod Clark · November 20, 20

    Saying that I agree or disagree with your view on this would be pointless. What I do think is essential to highlight is that you along with most other people in the world continue to drive a stake between people. It matters not if you are a man or woman. It only matters what skills sets you bring to the table. The longer you focus on the differences, the longer you will dwindle in the past; living your life based on such archaic premises. Being unable to see the light; but what do I know.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy

  • Jarod, I am sorry but I totally fail to understand your comment as this is exactly what I am trying to point out myself – there is no difference and there should not be and everyone can reach the goals, no matter what the gender is. Probably I am still unable to see the light and this is visible but at least I have tried to tell exactly the same thing you do – even though in somewhat different words.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy.Com - Web 2.0 News & Commentary

  • Jarod, I am sorry but I totally fail to understand your comment as this is exactly what I am trying to point out myself – there is no difference and there should not be and everyone can reach the goals, no matter what the gender is. Probably I am still unable to see the light and this is visible but at least I have tried to tell exactly the same thing you do – even though in somewhat different words.


    This comment was originally posted on Profy

  • Years ago was at a club where the talent started making fat chick jokes. We good-naturedly tried to get him off topic by pelting him with limes in a surely-you-can-do-better-than-this kind of way.


    We got bounced!


    This comment was originally posted on Kim Werker

  • Ha!


    But in all seriousness (though I’m still chuckling), it’s a really hard

    thing to figure out: how to productively address this sort of thing. If


    throwing fruit gets us bounced but just bringing it up gets us painted as


    hypersensitive or incapable of taking a joke, what are we to do?


    This comment was originally posted on Kim Werker

  • I would politely wonder aloud about his relationship with a significant woman – or with women investors. Years ago, in the early days of computers in the workplace, your father was conducting a training session. A middle-aged female student asked him if his wife was a strong woman. Taken aback, he asked why. She replied that he must be married to a strong woman because he was not treating his female students as being incapable of understanding this "scary, difficult" new technology. He responded by saying that if he treated women as inferior in any way he would no longer be married!


    This comment was originally posted on Kim Werker

  • brandy
    I have been in the tech industry for over 10 years now, graduated an art school with a multimedia degree in 2000. I have worked as an XHTML coder professionally for some time, and eventually moved on to Information Architecture and Interaction Design.

    I will say that in the last 5 years or so the amount of women I've noticed in the field has dropped a lot, but the female managers has gone up considerably. So maybe some of those women who coded for a year or two moved on/up.

    Also to be in tech you don't have to excel in math and science, I certainly never did.
  • Gregory Hamilton
    This is all well and good, but my dinner isn't gonna cook itself. So, come on, chop chop, get your asses back in the kitchen.
  • abass
    2. The Center for Media Research has released a study by Vertical Response that shows just where many of these ‘Main Street’ players are going with their online dollars. The big winners: e-mail and social media. With only 3.8% of small business folks NOT planning on using e-mail marketing and with social media carrying the perception of being free (which they so rudely discover it is far from free) this should make some in the banner and search crowd a little wary.

    onlineuniversalwork
  • abass
    Small Business owners are largely forgotten. Thats why I only focus on them. I have experience several members of my family file bankruptcy due to small business failures. I also I suffered through 2 destroyed businesses due to failure however, in my failings I have learned some of the secrets to success. (Who can say they know it all?)
    What I like about small business owners is that they are not afraid to take huge risks and lay it all on the line. But, I agree they do need a lot of help with their marketing. I think having them go the social media and email route is not only the least expensive but its also the most effective. Thanks for the stats!

    onlineuniversalwork
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