I just got a call from Flametree director Pascal Spelier, he left an extensive comment below. I updated this post based on his comment.
Large corporations often think they can build their own cool web app, their own social network, their own LinkedIN, Facebook, or Hyves. And why not…. “We have millions of customers already, we have loads of money we can invest in this project, we have very skilled and expensive consultants. What can go wrong… LinkedIN eat your heart out!”
Well here is a story to prove the large corporations wrong (once again). The Dutch bank ABNAMRO (yes the one that merged with Fortis, then almost went bankrupt and was bought back by the Dutch governement for only 17 billion euros) thought they could build a Dutch copycat of LinkedIN. We have Hyves here, who rule the social networking space when it comes to your personal life, but some people might argue that we do not have a Dutch clone of a business network (others would say, so what, we have LinkedIN and Facebook…)
3 million A lot of money down the drain
ABNAMRO invested 3 million (Update: Flametree director Pascal Spelier says it is a lot less. My source mentioned the 3 million figure) a lot of euros in Flametree, which is probably the most pathetic corporate startup you have ever seen. It is a pity the service is in Dutch only. Last month I check on the number of users they had, (they removed the number of users from their frontpage) and it were a mere 3578 3221. I kid you not: 3221 people signed up for this service and they are around for quite some time (Flametree launched on March 29th of 2008). That is 900 euros per user! And we’re not even talking about active users here.
3 million euros that is about 3.8 million US! What were they thinking??? Do me a favor and just quit the service, shut it down and go and focus on saving your bank.
Update: Director Flemetre says: “Our main problem is activity within the network. Within a few weeks we will launch a completely renewed Flametree, which will tackle this issue, amongst other improvements.” OK, so they are launching a new version of Flametree, I’m curious if that will change their situation, but I don’t believe it will change anything. As Robert Gaal mentions in the comments: “I applaud that you tried to do something ambitious. However, I think you started of completely on the wrong foot.”
disclosure: I can’t get a mortgage at ABNAMRO, that might have influenced my opinion while writing this post :)
I was doing the social network myself and also got stuck with the same problem. It s definitely not needed to do one more facebook or LinkedIn. Those companies who want to do something social must do something specialized. Universal social networks will not survive as Facebook covers everything, but communities for target auditorium can survive (in case if there will be synchronization with Facebook apps). I am speaking about the community for cat lovers such as unitedcats.com or social network for travelers wyan.com, or social network for designers deviantart.com etc. Also there are plenty of open source social networking platforms to build everyone’s own social network (xing.com or buddypress plugin for WordPress system)
Wow, I actually found two users! a couple more and we have about 1% of their db :)
Yeah that sounds a lot more viable and I’m sure there are many cases of big companies who are successfully doing just that. Do you have examples?
I have a account on that “thing”..It is useless, diff. to understand and not even close to linked-in or any other webservice. During the last 6-8 months I received just 2 mails…so they even did not try very hard to make me a active user…well I am worth 900 E according to patrick…:)
Discloser : They didn’t give me a loan to expand my business and create more jobs…and I did only need like 100.000 E…bugger
Trying to build the next Linkedin or Hyves doesn’t seem the right approach to me as well. Providing a platform to engage existing (or potential) customers with your business while adding value yourself seems more viable to me. What are your thoughts Patrick?
Beside, in the same ABN-Amro/Fortis family, you had Join2Grow the Social Network “for European top entrepreneurs” operated by Fortis. Content was dusty, usability weak. They were to broad and had no focus on anything… Not amazingly, Join2Grow has shut the door a few weeks ago
http://www.join2grow.biz/
I also made a Flametree account and never used it. Speaking of lame social networks, there’s also Air France KLM’s Bluenity.
Thiefs! :)
Don’t do the digging …you will find a lot of stuff you are not going to like
I applaud that you tried to do something ambitious. However, I think you started of completely on the wrong foot. LinkedIn DOES provide valuable leads and contacts for entrepreneurs. I use it frequently to stay in touch with people, get recommendations from colleagues or fellow entrepreneurs, post job ads or partnership offers, and get introduced to potential partners by one of my contacts.
Transform Flametree and try and make it into a network that works on top of existing networks. It will certainly provide you with more members than 3200, and will leverage existing community. The Next Web already has half of those in their LinkedIn group and the Dutch Media Professionals group has over 5000. None of them have spent more than a million, I guarantee it.
So integrate! Stick to what you do best, and leverage what others more focused than you have already made successful.
Just to make things clear… This Patrick is not me.
eh sorry;
yes i’m a different Patrick.
regards,
Patrick Boonstra
Pascal,
Can you give us some insight on how launching a renewed Flametree (technology) will boost user activity?
When we met last year you fully believed in user generated content without moderation (the community will generate content by itself, we won’t interfere). Do you still stand by this opinion or do you actively put community management into action?
regards,
Patrick
Fuck ABN AMRO. Disclosure: I discovered I’ve been paying for useless insurance on my business account for 2 years.
Yeah Tim, that is the entrepreneurial spirit! Something they clearly lack.
No, not very recently, I think 10 months ago…
@Tim,
My company is around for almost 10 years, always the same bank ABN AMRO. But they fail to see the possibilities of a company….they want me to take to risks….and they won’t help
@Patrick:
You’re not alone, they seem to have simply cut all their credit supply (except perhaps to big and established corporate clients). We couldn’t get a loan from them either, while we merely asking for an extremely humble starters loan. And they didn’t give us any reason at all (apart from “we do not provide credit in your industry at the moment”). F*ck the banks, we’ll do it without them instead.
The fact that this is the first time ever I hear about this service says a lot about it too…
Nice, when was this? recently? That would mean that they are still pumping money in this sunk ship…
Someone I know happened to be at a meeting about Flametree and they handed out bags with paper flyers about the wide range of possibilities with Flametree. Hahahaha, failure written all over it.
Patrick,
You could have guessed it, I’m not amused with the blog article. Especially because you have all the facts wrong. I appreciate people having an opinion, because we can learn from that. But please refer to the right numbers.
“ABNAMRO invested 3 million euros in Flametree”. This amount is competely wrong (too high). I’m not going to inform you about the actual investments, but it’s far from your ‘estimate’.
“…3578 people signed up for this service…”. As of today we have 3.221 members. We have never published this number on our internetsite, only in our Newsletter.
“…and they are around for quite some time (at least 1.5 years, probably longer).” Flametree was launched March 29th 2008.
“…a Dutch copycat of LinkedIN…” We don’t intend to be a copycat of LinkedIN. We don’t have the illusion to beat LinkedIN or Hyves. We want to be different! Flametree is a niche social network for entrepeneurs. LinkedIN is a social network for professionals, not (or less) for entrepeneurs. Entrepeneurs are networking (on- and offline) mainly with the goal to find prospects and LinkedIN is not helping them with that goal. We are also combining on- and offline networking in Flametree.
We think there’s a potential in the Dutch market for a niche social network for entrepeneurs. We don’t have a global ambition, especially because our target group (Dutch SME Companies) is networking in the close boundaries of their company.
“…And we’re not even talking about active users here…” You’re right on this one. Our main problem is activity within the network. Within a few weeks we will launch a completely renewed Flametree, which will tackle this issue, amongst other improvements. Curious? With pleasure I want to share our opinion on social networking with you and give you a demo of the new Flametree. You’re invited for a meeting with me in the Dialogues House (www.dialogueshouse.nl) and I will inform you about the new Flametree. We’ve quite good coffee here :-). Perhaps you are willing to change your mind on Flametree.
Kind regards,
Pascal Spelier
Director Flametree
I guess you’re Patrick B. and not the author of this article. I can agree with you that depending on user generated content alone can be risky, especially with a network that isn’t mature yet. I’m also familiar with te 1-9-90 theory (1% active, 9% is reacting, 90% is ‘consuming’). So, we’ve decided to moderate the content, but will also generate more of our own content en attract content from third parties.
Obviously LinkedIn isn’t the only one building a business network: http://mashable.com/2009/03/12/entrepreneur-networks/
I’ve never looked at FlameTree but based on the explanation I heard from Pascal, it does have potential. Entrepreneurs can never have enough of networking so why wouldn’t wouldn’t this work?
@Patrick: in this post you complain that Flametree hasn’t really kicked in, but I don’t see you giving arguments _why_ this is so.. a statement without information is useless to me and a complete rant…
So please enlighten me why this network is failing, so I can learn from it’s mistakes :D